Do not sell list discussion

[celestine]

I'm with those who consider the DMA to be above and separate from inter-clan politics or would get involved in enforcing anything 100% except for forum board behaviour.

I'd imagine clan politics could be a bustling hive of chaos and changing allegiences, wars and conflicts.. getting involved in that or trying to enforce specific behaviours about whom should be treated how could cause some interesting problems and lose us potential interest/customers perhaps.

There's always the freedom to set up Clans, sign specific trade agreements or alliances between members here but having the DMA as a body, free and independent from it all might be the best way to do business.

I like seeing the DNS List more as a 'Warning' and alert people to possible problems with those people but they are then free to make up their own minds and make their own judgements.

Everyone here has different goals and ambitions I imagine so keeping it open & free allows for greatest degree of flexibility.

Seeing more Merchant Clans & Trade Union Clans etc. would certainly be a fine thing to see and I imagine more will come along as the game progresses and our beloved membership here are free to do so too and I enjoy reading how their projects are developing in the "Clan Discussion" section of these forums. I'm sure many of us would be happy to help with advice or offer our constructive comments for anyone wanting to found such Clans and Guilds.



As already wisely mentioned - loving the chance to debate and discuss these finer points of a game without the usual flames or foolish derailments we find in some other, lesser forums

[ZtyX Roman]

As the CEO of a gathering company I can honestly say that M.I.N.E Inc will never support a DO NOT SELL list.

I believe two points are missed in this discussion.

The first is that we are merchants and we trade goods because it is good for our businesses.
By trading with somebody we are not neccesarily helping them. We are looking out for our own interests and the interests of our members or employees. We are not making a courtesy act for anybody.
A good point was brought up by Archmage Isse-Istar. Those interested in upholding a DNS list are passing up opportunities.
The only reason I can see why anyone would do this is if this merchant had enough business already. In which case, he is not running an efficient price policy and should be charging more to lower demand and maximize his profits.

My second point is about the nature of the game environment we play in. Darkfall is a full loot open PK zone. In such a zone it is natural to kill others no matter if they are a merchant, a miner or a crafter. From a merchant's point of view this can easily become a beneficial thing. And I will make a very strong point now.
In my oppinion, anyone following this list is shooting himself in the foot and shooting smart business sense in the foot.
This is is the case because a person who penalizes the PKer automaticly tries to cease the very warfare he is fueling through sales of goods. He eliminates his own income or the income of others and there is no doubt that the PKer will be able to find another supplier in most cases or perhaps need less in the long run when these DNS lists become too much of a pain. Therefore it is not a smart approach from a business perspective. Perhaps it is a fun thing to annoy PKers back after they kill you. But, surely it is better to take advantage of this and allow them continue killing, but simply begin to use smarter business tactics. Which brings me to an important point about smart business tactics that ultimately create more money and work for everybody.
To make it short, because it is rather self-explanatory, I will just come out and say it as clear as it can possibly get.

Hire mercenaries so you don't die in the first place. Make life easier by not bearing a grudge when you are killed fairly. Clearly, you were not careful enough. Perhaps you were not good enough. Do not encourage businesses to support a DNS list to grief back the PKers. Grief them through demanding more Gold for your goods due to the added risk of the job. And at the same time - create a profit margin by being innovative and establish business deals with mercenaries who can protect you for a smaller fee than what you can earn by raising your prices.

Therefore, I encourage any serious businessman and, perhaps even more so, any serious mercenary to boycott this DNS list and those attempting to put it to action. For not only does it give you less work for protecting merchants and gatherers through escort business, but it may very well be you on that DNS list. And for what reason? - Because you were doing your job for somebody else who hired you.

I'll therefore repeat myself. As CEO of M.I.N.E Inc. I support the nature of this game and I support smart business tactics. That is why you will never see me shoot my company in the foot by supporting a DNS list that ensures less profits and less work. Just like you will never see me charge 300% or 500% of market value of items because I bear a grudge to a certain group that was doing their job. Business is business, warfare is our source of income. Don't suppress it. Embrace it. Play it smart, avoid warzones and hire mercenaries if you really insist on going to dangerous places. Raise your prices to make up for the risk you take and use mercenaries to eliminate the risk, but keep the added profit from a raised price.

That's smart.

Be smart. f**k this list.

[Si'aan Anoura]

Hrmmm... you make some VERY valid points, Master Roman, and you are very persuasive about it. There are a lot of people who do support a DNS list (I have been one of them), but you have succeeded in changing my mind. I think it is a natural response to want to undercut anyone who treats you wrongly - its a natural emotion. I agree with everything you say, except that I do not know how I would deal (if I were a crafter) with trading to someone who I know had griefed me in the past. Sure, by declining to sell them anything, they will just go to the next person and buy it from them, but how can you knowingly sell to someone who will likely kill you the next time they see you; possibly with the gear you sell them? That is what makes a DNS list attractive, and, as I said, while I agree with your statements whole heartedly, how do you get past that primitive instinct to not support those who only aim to harm you?

[ZtyX Roman]

You are certainly correct it in your thoughts, Lady Si'aan. It is a natural response to wrong 'doers', but only if you do consider them to be wrong 'doers'. The question is if you consider them to be wrong 'doers' after you read the following.

You can be in one of two categories. A businessman or a casual crafter.

I will ask you, Lady Si'aan Anoura, as well as anyone else in doubt, this rhetorical question. Why is killing you so much different than killing me or that guy over there? And I will partly answer this question later, but only to dismiss it.

Well.. Killing will happen every day because Darkfall is built to be a warzone. The round continent of Agon proves this by encouraging border conflicts in that it places racial enemies against each other. Additionally, major battles are going on in the center of the map. The surrounding islands are for high level PvE and the waters are conveniently designed to make narrow passages that allow ships to close in other ships for naval battles.

This whole game is one big deathtrap. What makes anyone think they should stop it? The only way to have peace with yourself and be prosperous is by accepting the dangerous environment and accept the PKers. They have fun PKing, like you have fun with your business. Hold no grudges. And what gives you the right to tell them how to play the game?

I know blame is easier to put on others when you lose, but what good does it serve you? I believe, the only good is a temporary and misunderstood feeling of relief when you can try to convince yourself that they are wrong 'doers'. In fact, they are just players looking to have fun. You just have different views on what is fun.

And. In a way, you're saying it's not fair that a hard working merchant should die. She should live and be left alone for the noble deeds she does. But, why are her deeds so noble or different from others'?
Besides.. You are crafting the selfsame weapons that kill you and others. You are fueling war, yet you choose to distance yourself from it. How can that be logic? It is not logic. It is hypocrisy to participate in a game such as Darkfall, craft weapons of war and then expect to be neutral.

Why would somebody agree with your point of view and demand that PKers immediately stop PKing traders? - Well, some would say that crafters are weak and deserve to be left in peace because they create a needed service to all players in Darkfall, or maybe just their friends. They craft weapons that are to be used only on other warriors.

And now I am getting close to the difference between a businessman and a casual crafter.

I am a businessman, and I don't find it hard to see through this and to do the right thing for me and my employees. I accept a death and I try to improve by fighting against the people that kill me. I do this by avoiding them, by hiring mercenaries to cover my back. By making smart deals and by demanding a higher price for my goods. This is a way for me to show respect and I know that they will respect me for it too. Perhaps they would even buy more goods from me and stop attacking me on their own without me even asking them to. All meanwhile I create more work for mercenaries who want to do a service, more innovation in how to run a business, more exciting gameplay for myself while trying to survive. I make my game experience much better and I don't sit down and indulge in selfpitiness.

I'm not going to point fingers because it doesn't make sense to be such a hypocrit and to reject all those positive benefits I mentioned above.

Those are benefits you lose when you choose to punish wrong 'doers' with a trade blockade. You don't make your business smarter, you efficiently decline to play the game the way it is intended to be played and you will be unhappy because you will constantly be fighting PKers who rightfully don't understand you. You will lose business and that is not the worst thing. Because yes, you do all these things and it is your own choice. And you can personally block whoever you want to.
But, when you choose to try to drag other merchants into this. You simply do one thing which is worse than passing up opportunities. You encourage others to do something that will give them less business, you give them enemies, and you take away their possibility to make an innovative business that uses mercenaries or other smart tactics to avoid or defend themselves. You take away risk vs reward which is the heart stone of business.

It is a crime. And any businessman who takes away the heart stone of business is someone who ultimately contributes to lowering the price of goods because he eliminates risk. Something these developers have spent time making available for us.

That, to me, is crime against your own kind. It's like backstabbing and it's much worse to experience that than to get killed.

But, I speak for myself when I write these things and I respect the casual crafter. I will just never support her and I will encourage mercenaries such as yourself and those interested in working with businesses that involve complex structures, where crafting, gathering, mercenary are not the only options - but where you can be paid in gold for work that is unlike any other, not to do it either..

There is one thing that remains to be said.
People who want to craft items can do that in any game. But, only few games actually make mercenaries meaningful and we all want this cool profession so badly. There are many mercenary units. Do you understand that by making a trade blockade you not only begin to feel sorry for yourself or get angry. You are not only becoming a hypocrit who quits rather than fight back. You also become a double hypocrit. Fueling war, but denying it, but also someone who wants mercenaries to be meaningful, yet would prefer not to hire them!

I hope it is convincing enough. And pardon me if I offend anybody. I certainly do respect casual players and casual crafters. I just won't have them make decisions at my level of business, which is serious and involves unique features I can't find in other games. I encourage all these crafters to either live with the game the way it is built or play another title.


Finally, I apologize for the long post. Of course. As always, anyone is free not to read it if they don't want to.



CEO
M.I.N.E Inc

ZtyX Roman

[belthize]

Jan 15, 2009 3:13:36 GMT -5 ZtyX Roman said:

As the CEO of a gathering company I can honestly say that M.I.N.E Inc will never support a DO NOT SELL list.

I believe two points are missed in this discussion.

The first is that we are merchants and we trade goods because it is good for our businesses.

My second point is about the nature of the game environment we play in. Darkfall is a full loot open PK zone.

Be smart. f**k this list.

The DNS from the perspective of DMA (which spans all worlds, playstyles, races, factions, RP, non-RP) serves a very different purpose than one a person might have. It could never be a list of people visitors to DMA should not sell to.

The DNS would be the list of people who *don't* want to do business. They're the ones who repeatedly prey on crafters under the guise of doing business by posting fake trade board requests or other means.

As I implied in the opening to this thread, DF is a brutal world and getting killed is not a cause for complaint. Even getting killed repeatedly isn't unless the pattern is 'any crafter' instead of 'just you' or 'your clan' and even that is open to debate.

I've said here and in other threads, DNS is a misnomer. It should be a warning not a rule. There's no way to enforce it and I'd ignore anyone who told me who I could and couldn't do business with.

DNS lists are a personal endeavor, a player, clan, union etc could have one if they like but that's because they can create objective enforceable guidelines that match their play style and preferences.

It really ought to be the 'Watch Out For' list, maybe the "Ware These Fools" list.

I personally doubt it's usefulness and predict more headache administering it than anything. There's no way to create an objective guideline for adding somebody, but if it did exist the above is about all it could do.

Thorsen Belthize
Historical note: Many of the posts in this thread were made in the context of the debate on whether DMA would be a general crafting website or a specific trade organization with rules.

[Si'aan Anoura]

With regards now to your second post on this, I agree less with your reasoning. I saw logic in your first post as to why it was bad, which accompanied some of my concerns that the list would fail to succeed anyway - but your second post to me is logical but unrealistic. Once you start doing things in-game because "it is how it was designed to be played" rather than "this is what works best or most effectively" automatically becomes a failure of game mechanics and an irrationality about the true intent of free-will (which is what this game is about, no? Contradiction much??? hahah). It is true that the use of the list may reduce the amount of work for a mercenary in some respects, but you must remember, we as mercenaries, not only work as bodyguards, but may also be used to target people specifically. (I won't just work for money, but will be pinned by a moralistic standpoint also; I plan on being the old D&D "True Neutral".) Thus if someone is griefed by a player repeatedly, I may be hired to grief them back. That won't see me end up on a DNS list, as it would be unlikely that my job would be to attack a crafter/merchant. Clearly, I value crafters and merchants; since I am here and am such a strong advocate of the DMA. Further, I do not fear a DNS list personally as I would hope I will have earned enough of a reputation amongst the crafter/merchant community to always have 'contacts' who I can rely on for jobs/goods. Thus I am playing with free-will, as the game is intended, despite the success or failure of the list.

Despite all of this, I feel that most individuals will make their own DNS list, and/or a KoS list. From many discussions on Forumfail, this seems likely of a lot of the PvP-wannabes there; something I personally plan on having. A DNS listing here isn't something that I think would or could be enforced. It would be not dissimilar to how you, if you made a DNS list, or even a KoS list, would probably share and discuss it with your friends, who would also be likely to support your reasoning for the names you have on it, and may even act in a similar manner to the names you have on there. The DMA will be a large community of like-minded players. A list would only serve as the opinions and perceptions of individual members, and would only be enforced by those who chose to enforce it. This is where I see that the DNS list would perhaps be a failure of its own accord... (While I am not saying that this is 'good' or 'bad', I do not think the DMA should try to enforce it. It is just not possible to do so, and will nonetheless undermine the legitimacy and neutrality of the Association.)

If, as the devs have alleged, each server will hold 10k players, then there is going to be a freakin' lot of people around - most of whom you will not recall running into before. We assume that there will be players we see regularly who gank us over and over, but the realistic outcome of this, once the game is launched, may be very different. How can you enforce a DNS list on a server of 10k players? How many members will we have in the DMA in comparison to the number of crafters/merchants not in the DMA? In this way, I see it as not holding much substance other than as a way to vent crafter frustration; something which would be better spent on hiring a mercenary or assassin to target that player personally (muahaha *hint, hint*).

While I still agree with your earlier points about it being bad business, I do still agree, but I think there are many more reasons over the true intent of the game's design that will kill off a public DNS list before a moralistic standpoint about achieving the fruition of the dev's great creationist intents.

(NB: I am arguing purely for the sake of making a valid argument - nothing here should be taken personally either!

Lady Si'aan Anoura.

[ZtyX Roman]

Oh, so it will be a healthy discussion I see.

Actually, I do see a valid point in playing the way the game is designed when it is designed to be without as many restrictions as possible. It is also designed to be a battlezone and that feature is one of a kind, but moreso it is powerful and greatly affects our existence in this virtual world. Therefore, I will embrace it because accepting makes the gaming experience both richer and easier for me.

I base that on the philosophy to accept things, which could be good and bring me more peace of mind, rather than to pointlessly fight them and get aggravated. I find it a really great bonus that there are so many other supportive reasons to make rejecting the DNS list a good decision for me as a serious and competitive businessman. In this case, acceptance equals efficiency or, according to you, "what is best".

Belthize.

There are plenty of reasons why this association is a good idea. I see no reason for the list to stay.

This list is political no matter how anyone chooses to argue it. Look at the discussion it has created so far. It's an issue putting people against each other in a debate.

For this association to be truly neutral and accept all sorts of gameplay styles, it cannot have support or promote any DNS list to exclude players. No matter how EVIL they are. If an individual is really displeased with something, he can talk about it in a discussion rather than to use the power held by this association to further his own goals for vengeance.
If someone really makes trade requests to try to kill you and you fall for it time and again it really should be you conducting business with a caravan or in a capitol city near a bank, rather than punishing those smart alternative style PKers.


I hear that both you and Lady Si'Aan Anoura support personal lists. So why not stop tripping and make a choice?
Why not leave it up to clans, guilds and individuals to manage who their enemies are?



Anyhow. I've stated my personal oppinion, that I would never support this list, and I've layed out my own perspective on this issue. I'll withdraw myself from the discussion and allow others to discuss without my interference.


CEO
M.I.N.E Inc

ZtyX

[Si'aan Anoura]

Just to update, and I know this goes against your grain Ztyx, but I have had an official offer from the Winter Blades, that they wish to be the first on our DNS listing. They appear to be a mature bunch from the language used on their forums (perhaps they lay the foundation of the maturity on Forumfail?). So, if the list does ever eventuate, should we delight them by putting them first on our list?

Edit: At least now our non-crafting members can know that they will have some work for them, even before the game starts!

[belthize]

Winterblades (no space) is one of the longer standing RPK guilds around. They're good folks in that you know where you stand with them (at the end of a sharp object) but posting on their guild forums about a DNS list is probably not the greatest form of advertising.

I'd never support seeing a clan like WinterBlades on the DNS list simply because they're efficient killers.

Getting killed by somebody because your not in their clan is an expected state of affairs in DF.

Thorsen Belthize
<predicts much bickering and politics over DNS in coming months>

[Si'aan Anoura]

But what about when they "ask" to be on our DNS list? lol

I acknowledge in hindsight that they were not the best place to advertise, but I did not recall seeing them say that they would specifically target crafter-types. Sometimes support comes from the most unlikely places - and sometimes it doesn't! Regardless, if we are successful with our ventures, then everyone will know of us - those who support us and those who don't. I will try everything once... "Once burned, twice learned".

[Ashka]

Perhaps it would be prudent to include a reason for why each individual/clan has been added to the DNS alongside their name? That way members of the DMA community can make a more informed choice of whether to withhold their dealings from one DNS case to the next.

As I already mentioned, I'll have no association with anyone added to the DNS list for botting, exploiting or gold farming. However, when it comes to hostile guilds such as Winterblades, I have no qualms making contracts with them, so long as they have no qualms being gouged on their prices .

[dropbear]

I am a pure 100% crafter from EVE online, an DAOC so I will be definatly promoting a DNS. Most of the PKs wont care, but Crafters need to grow a backbone I think, an stand up for each other:).... make it so the griefers have to think before messing with us, if they still do it, then charge that person 1000% for ANY item. Effectively making it useless for him to buy off you.

Traders should always rememebr tyhey can control the markets an strangle trade if they wantt oo. But it takes the whole group to do it.

[Isse-Istar]

Jan 15, 2009 20:28:38 GMT -5 Ashka said:

Perhaps it would be prudent to include a reason for why each individual/clan has been added to the DNS alongside their name? That way members of the DMA community can make a more informed choice of whether to withhold their dealings from one DNS case to the next.

I absolutely agree with this suggestion. I think some people for example will never trade with someone on DNS if there is no reason given, but if it comes out to be just bot for example they wouldn't mind trading and making money. I suppose that a reason should be included since there are some offenses that some people would agree to tolerate.

Archmage Isse-Istar.

[Si'aan Anoura]

Despite a mixed feeling amongst members so far for the DNS list, I have been posting on a lot of different clan forums lately; with quite a few posting comments stating that they like the idea of us having a DNS listing. Seems to be quite a draw card for people too. I suppose people like to see some form of unified response to mindless targeting of crafter types?

Lady Si'aan Anoura.

[Isse-Istar]

Jan 18, 2009 5:11:19 GMT -5 Si'aan Anoura said:

Despite a mixed feeling amongst members so far for the DNS list, I have been posting on a lot of different clan forums lately; with quite a few posting comments stating that they like the idea of us having a DNS listing. Seems to be quite a draw card for people too. I suppose people like to see some form of unified response to mindless targeting of crafter types?

Lady Si'aan Anoura.

Well I guess one may think of it like Wikipedia. All of the useful things for a merchant in one place in a relatively easy forum. Plus throw in security (unlike Wiki).

But I suppose that we should not make such information freely available otherwise there will be no motivation for joining. We want member base to grow, thus only members should be able to access something like DNS.

Also I think we SHOULD have DNS, since it is almost too useful. We may save many merchants (wasn't merchant security one of the goals of this place) from being scammed.

I would disagree with ZtyX Roman, because DNS is not against PK'ers, I think. PK should be included only if a person broke an agreement by killing a merchant that arrived. But then it is not punishment for PK but punishment for lying. DNS will not hurt PvP it will just prevent people from getting lyed to. Merchants do fuel PvP but they do not fuel lies, so this will not shoot anything in the foot, besides people who plan on doing things that are offenses, that can be reported to GMs. So basically we are keeping up with what Developers do want to be in-game.

Archmage Isse-Istar.