jadow
New Member
Posts: 2
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Post by jadow on Jan 7, 2009 9:08:13 GMT -5
Just joined, and was wondering... how exactly will this alliance work?
Will it be like a guild and hold an actual hamlet/city and create it into a crafting haven or will it just be a discussion group that talks about crafting in Darkfall or will it be something in between?
How will it be organized? Will there be a single leader (similar to a guild leader) that decides everything by himself. Or will it be more Democratic/Free reign, with representatives of crafters/merchants being elected or possibly just no leadership with the members discussing things amongst themselves?
Also, what kind of merchants/crafters will be allowed in? All types, even those who mostly pve/pvp and only do a little trade/crafting or just pure crafters/merchants?
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Post by Si'aan Anoura on Jan 7, 2009 15:51:29 GMT -5
Firstly I am speaking for myself here. Thus I am not preempting anything Recnep may say! Though, it is my impression that most of the questions you ask are not set in stone - yet. As Recnep said in another post, we won't be making a clan unless the game mechanics show it will be beneficial to do so. In saying that, it is my personal opinion that the Union of merchants would work far better as a concept in-game, not as something formal (though it would be cool for those who 'belong' or 'subscribe' to the Union to carry a piece of parchment saying just that - for recognition purposes!) In answer to leaders. Recnep runs this forum - he has the right to boot anyone who's a toss (do non-Aussies know that term? Its like wanker, or thingyhead!). I suppose the real question though is still in the air. Maybe you should start a thread and we can start discussing the pros/cons of leadership? Your final question: I believe all types of merchants/crafters/gatherers should be allowed in - if that's what they consider themselves to be. However, in order for this Union to work, we need non-merchants too. Mercenaries who will pledge to support merchants who belong to the Union, along with other guilds who may wish the friendship or a mutual-benefit with the Union (Protection for Discounted Gear, etc etc.) All this is stuff to be discussed! Hope that helps your questions to start with though. I will let Recnep answer it in more detail or from his perspective (lest I hijack his forum! )
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Post by Recneps on Jan 7, 2009 18:22:49 GMT -5
I'm going to post a "mission statement" type thread later this evening but I figured I'd answer a few questions here.
I think perhaps I chose to strong a word with "alliance". Maybe association would be a better choice. The DMA ( the initials work either way) more than likely won't be a clan or guild unless the games design makes it very advantageous to do so. Even then it will remain open to all merchants, crafters, mercenaries, gatherers and customers who don't present themselves as complete asshats.
It will support and encourage the formation of clans centering on the merchant profession and one or more of our members has already started looking in that direction. They will have a home here if they choose to use it.
The advantages of being a member of the DMA could be many. The basic premise is to allow a networking tool for crafters and merchants to. . . . Well. . . . . network. Negotiate or offer deals and contracts, barter for goods and materials, schedule material gathering groups etc. The possibilities here are endless. The big one in my opinion is the possibility of protection, both from companions in groups and DNS lists. Maybe a merchant clan actually manages to hold a city or hamlet? They may be more inclined to allow someone from the DMA to utilize its safety and facilities.
As far as leadership goes. . . . I'm not sure we'll see much of a official format for "command". For the most part it will be open discussion and agreements with the staff taking care of formatting the board to match demands and eliminate trouble makers. Clans choosing to roost here will have their own section and will be responsible for maintaining it. Right now the staff consists of. . . . me. That will likely change over time if the board grows and develops though.
Recneps
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Post by Si'aan Anoura on Jan 7, 2009 22:08:50 GMT -5
I think perhaps I chose to strong a word with "alliance". Maybe association would be a better choice. The DMA ( the initials work either way) more than likely won't be a clan or guild unless the games design makes it very advantageous to do so. Even then it will remain open to all merchants, crafters, mercenaries, gatherers and customers who don't present themselves as complete asshats. [...] Recneps I also feel that "Alliance" is a a strong word, and can give a slant to this organisation's true intent. I have been referring to it as a merchant union (or the "Union"), it is is more a representation of and platform for other clans, rather than a firm agreement between anyone. Also, should we possibly replace "Darkfall" with "Agon"? Maybe we could be the AMU (Agon Merchants Union)? Just a suggestion, what does everyone think? Edit (9 Jan): Having read around a little more, there is in fact a Mercenary Union (MU) which could definitely make that confusing (also, I believe there is a guild called "The Union", but from what I could gather, they weren't all that active). And by that, Association is growing on me... Isse-Istar of Sanguis Argentum referred to us as the 'Association' in speaking to me; which sounds cool to me. I always feel there's a lot in a name... Lady S.
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Isse-Istar
Junior Member
Archmage of Sanguis Argentum (EU merc clan)
Posts: 50
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Post by Isse-Istar on Jan 9, 2009 5:48:56 GMT -5
I would definitely agree that Alliance would put mercenary clans like mine in a rather awkward position, seeing that we should not hold allegiances. Association is a great substitute.
I wanted to propose a council of leaders of clans as a system for proposition of laws and policies and other details (I understand this places solo's in disadvantage but keep reading). Afterwards we pass the policies and laws to every member and have a vote, where to pass something 75% support is required (so as to make it difficult for clans to be the only deciding force the percent should be high).
As for the city system, I think a great setup would be to setup a network between all the clan city, where the solo members will be welcome too (for example my clan will have rooms available in our city). Every time the council I proposed above is too meet, that will happen in rotation in one city after another. So between the meetings some one city will be elected to be the capital of DMA. This will rotate and the order can be determined by ordering clan names alphabetically and then randomizing the numbers, and thus we will have a repeating cycle. Of course the disadvantage here would be that sometimes councils may take place often and cities will be capitals for a short while, but I don't think there is too much to gain from the title of capital and hence I don't suppose people will be too upset if theirs stays a capital for a short time-span.
What do you think?
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belthize
Junior Member
Independent Mercian Crafter
Posts: 58
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Post by belthize on Jan 9, 2009 12:20:09 GMT -5
I'd assumed DMA was a website for mostly independent crafters and harvesters to go to share information and create in game contacts for sale. By independent I mean 'not in prototypical clan' since the non-independents have most of their contact/work from within their clan. It's also a useful contact point for mercs since merchants are a likely client.
I thought DMA basically provides out of game interaction for buyers/sellers/protection for individual or small group crafters/harvesters that clan'ed crafters/harvesters get from a big clan.
If DMA has some sort of official presence in game in the form of either a clan tag or a creation of guidelines that people have to follow I'll probably not make use of it. Not even sure how that works with different EU/NA worlds. I had thought the only policy/rules were with respect to forum behavior.
I think it's fine for members of the DMA website to form clans and as recneps has suggested have a subforum for their use but that's a different kettle of fish than DMA itself having an in game clan or set of rules. Subforums are primarily for focused advertising and coordination so their clients can go straight to their area for requests not for them to dictate how other merchants operate. For example I may well form a Merchant House consisting of 10+ people crafting and/or harvesting that would be a 'clan' in game.
This is ultimately up to Recneps since it's his website but some of the current direction seems orthogonal to what I understood the point to be.
Thorsen Belthize
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Post by Si'aan Anoura on Jan 9, 2009 14:54:33 GMT -5
I definitely want to have my two cents on this (as with EVERYTHING lol), but I don't have the time now To say briefly, the question of leadership and direction is always something that will arise as an issue in situations such as this where there is no 'official' leadership. In order to succeed, we will have to work out some way of choosing directions and making decisions when tough issues appear. Also, with servers - early on this wont be a BIG problem I don't think, since there wont be many from the start, but we may have to make separate sections for different servers? Or commit to one or a few servers to work with? Too big an issue for me to think about just yet! I would love to have more discussion here about directions, plans and policy for the DMA to have, so we can all know what we can do here. I think for newcomers, its hard to know what the forum and association is for and will be. We just have to nut out the wills and wonts of what we will be about before too many people assume too many different things of the organisation. ((Ok, now I really have to go! )) Lady S.
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Post by Recneps on Jan 9, 2009 18:02:11 GMT -5
I think assumptions based on a poor job of outlining the concept of the DMA is a big problem. One that falls squarely on my shoulders. I've been a bit scatterbrained lately with real life stuff causing it and I didn't really put the thought into this as much as I should have. I hope to rectify that this evening and reformat a few things on the board as well as clarifying what the DMA is and isn't. Recneps *Cliff Notes Version* The DMA is similar to a tavern/inn. A place for a group of people (who happen to have similar interests) to rub elbows and make acquaintances. Deals can be brokered, friendships formed and Clans/Guilds built from the ground up but the DMA is still nothing more than the entity that allows that to happen.
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belthize
Junior Member
Independent Mercian Crafter
Posts: 58
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Post by belthize on Jan 9, 2009 18:48:37 GMT -5
I'm buying .... Guinness around for everyone. Somebody else can stand the next round.
Thorsen Belthize
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Isse-Istar
Junior Member
Archmage of Sanguis Argentum (EU merc clan)
Posts: 50
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Post by Isse-Istar on Jan 10, 2009 4:07:16 GMT -5
I understand people's liberal approach and I share it and am looking up to it strongly as well. Nevertheless I believe there should be some form of a board that will decide on issues of importance and set direction for the DMA. Otherwise DMA will look more like a village market with people yelling their offrs and not hearing each other. I believe some organization of leadership (even though a very speread one) should be organized to direct the shouts to the listeners.
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Post by Si'aan Anoura on Jan 10, 2009 4:47:00 GMT -5
I think assumptions based on a poor job of outlining the concept of the DMA is a big problem. One that falls squarely on my shoulders. Well as far as I gathered, it wasn't really settled what it would consist of exactly; thus it falls very un-squarely on your shoulders, since you couldn't have posted something without it being ambiguous anyway! I understand people's liberal approach and I share it and am looking up to it strongly as well. Nevertheless I believe there should be some form of a board that will decide on issues of importance and set direction for the DMA. Otherwise DMA will look more like a village market with people yelling their offrs and not hearing each other. I believe some organization of leadership (even though a very speread one) should be organized to direct the shouts to the listeners. I do really agree. I think deciding on how leadership will work will be a very big challenge, but it will need to be done, at least eventually. I think it's fair, at least at present, that those of us who are here early should be free to nut out the core components of this Association, and what it will stand for, and all be heard. Maybe there will need to be sections of the Association subject to leadership, but other sections which are autonomous (except maybe moderated so they are not abused.. but then that's still leadership to some degree). Like for who can join, DNS listings, etc, should have some level of decision involved, but the forming of contracts should be left to individuals and clans involved. I mean, how can we decide on the issues?
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belthize
Junior Member
Independent Mercian Crafter
Posts: 58
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Post by belthize on Jan 10, 2009 9:32:37 GMT -5
I don't think there's any direction for DMA to be ruled and organized. To me at least DMA is very much like www.vanguardcrafters.com. One person (Genda) created the site pre-release after discussions about the need between 3 or 4 folks. It started out much like DMA as simply a place to interact. It became very popular and was the place to go for information on crafting. for people to ask questions, or advertise their wares and ask for wares. The latter wasn't as active as it might be in DF because Vanguard ended up with a global auction house of ridiculous proportions. A few people formed crafting guilds or joined existing ones based on their interactions in VGcrafters. Over time, as the need arose, Genda solicited help as he saw fit. New functionality arose by suggestion and worked quite well. I see no reason DMA can't reach it's own useful structure, tempered by the unique aspects of DF, by following a similar course. Over time I'm sure small, medium or possibly even large crafting clans will spin off after meeting here and hammering out details in the 'Clan Discussion' sub-forum and create their own clan sites. I'd imagine there'll eventually be a sticky or something pointing to the different 'crafter clan' websites if any actual occur. Those are the folks existing merc clans, other crafting clans like Anvil or prototypical clans would create alliances or rules of engagement with, not DMA members in general. Thorsen Belthize
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Isse-Istar
Junior Member
Archmage of Sanguis Argentum (EU merc clan)
Posts: 50
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Post by Isse-Istar on Jan 10, 2009 11:18:56 GMT -5
Hmm, I do not think of DMA as a large marketplace. I think this should be more of an organization for moderation of people so as for them not to slice each other, direct trade at times through use of mercs so that good are available and nobody cheats.
I believe that DMA should be more of a place that ensures the security of a customer and a merchant (and don't think of this as merc propaganda, I mean financial security). Thus some organization is needed. We do not want to just make a market or an auction, I assume, then we don't need an organization really, a simple forum without moderation would suffice.
If we want to follow the set goal of helping all merchants and crafters, then first of all we must ensure that they won't be cheated out of their stuff, they will not be killed, they will not have things stolen and they will be heard. Thus we need a structure of executive branch (police that looks after things, like mercs), legislative branch (some government that comes up with policies), people (for whom it's all done), and judicial branch (moderators who will judge whether things are fair or not, this duty may be dumped onto legislative branch as well).
Archmage Isse-Istar Ingole-Tur.
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Post by Recneps on Jan 10, 2009 11:44:13 GMT -5
The biggest problem with a structured organization is that it becomes similiar to a clan/guild itself. That in turn throws up a roadblock in the ability to network or help all people in the trade.
A large number of clans have a fairly strict (even if unspoken) policy about their members dealing with other clans, especially one which they consider the enemy. If the DMA begins setting and enforcing rules or attempting to influence trade in a official manner. . . . It cuts its membership base by a large percentage.
Mercenary clans especially have raised issues with becoming part of a association that may force them to face difficult decisions about loyalty, letter of contract and being impartial.
Recneps
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Isse-Istar
Junior Member
Archmage of Sanguis Argentum (EU merc clan)
Posts: 50
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Post by Isse-Istar on Jan 10, 2009 12:12:26 GMT -5
That is true, mercenary policies will have to be configured: for example contracts against members of DMA.
As for the interference it will have to, then, be carefully controlled. We just want security. What I meant by directing is not allowing people to kill each other over a penny or cheating money out of each other. Thus I think a joint parliament-like approach would be good. Also a possibility of objecting to policies should be permitted (through judicial branch). Thus the people themselves will moderate the power.
Suppose that will work?
Archmage Isse-Istar Ingole-Tur.
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