What I would like to see in a trader's association

[khaene]

Fellow traders,
I'm glad to see some efforts at organizing the masses for more efficient and reliable trading. I've read over the DMA charter and read the posts in the general section and would just like to put forward a sort of skeleton outline of what I think crafters would find most useful in an organization like this.

1. Contracts - A means for posting and responding to contract requests. A contract can be any agreement between two parties.
Without a way to validate a contract there's no real repercussion to breaking it beyond the attitudes of the people immediately involved. I'd love to see a system that let's buyers and sellers make a more informed decision before entering a contract; a system that has real consequences for "scamming" or otherwise intentionally breaking a contract.

2. Do Not Sell (DNS) list - This is necessary to support a working contracting system and, if working correctly, would add real meaning to agreements between players.
However, I believe only issues directly relating to trade infractions, ie scamming or ambushing and any other dishonest dealings, should land someone on the Do Not Sell list. I feel a random ganking or series of gankings of a member of the association is beyond the associations jurisdiction and is best left to the political clan structures.
The real difficulty with a DNS list is answering "how do we validate requests for additions to the list?" There are several ways we could end up doing this.
One possible solution:
Rather than a DNS list perhaps we could have a system much like various online marketplaces where association members can just comment on players/clans they have done business with. Before entering a contract with someone perhaps we could pull up a list of their previous completed contracts and any positive or negative comments and leave the decision up to the individual association member.

3. Anything else beneficial to the organization is just icing on the cake and not strictly necessary imho.

4. For this system to really work well there needs to only be one authority. If there are four or five different trade associations per server it only serves to limit our information and the credibility of that information.

When I get home later I plan to search the forums for other start-up organizations like the DMA and maybe we can all put our heads together and get something started that really works.

The true form this association should take to be useful will be very dependent on what mechanisms Darkfall will already have in place on release I think.

Thanks for reading!

[Si'aan Anoura]

Well met to you Khaene! Don't forget to give an official intro on the roll call too!

Your words have a lot of value I feel. I see contracts as being central to a lot of the function of the Association in due time, but little has been developed on it thus far. I am not sure what you're suggesting by a "system that let's buyers and sellers make a more informed decision before entering a contract", but one suggestion that comes to mind first: Like buying something from a seller online (Like Amazon, or eBay) - Maybe we should offer a template for forming a contract, a really open and blank one. But once you 'lodge' that contract on the site, it will ask you for feedback about the other parties, something like the "Exalt|Smite" system under our usernames here (perhaps something more complex though?). If we make an official list of members, and it can display your 'reputation' for dealings in contracts. Something like that? Just a thought.

And thanks for posting Khaene! I thrive on constructive discussions!!!

Lady S.

[khaene]

That sounds like something that would work. Sadly I don't have a clue how to implement it in a webpage but hopefully some overzealous crafter out there does.

One possible drawback however is that this might require contracts to be visible to all. I'd expect many mercenary groups won't want everyone to be able to check and see who they're working for and in what capacity. Maybe we could make only closed out contracts viewable? Or maybe there could be an option to keep the contract hidden from the public indefinitely as a point both parties would have to agree on. But then what happens if one party breaks the contract? Should it then become publically viewable?

If we had a contracting system in place that gave people this kind of flexibility when forming agreements I think we'd see a lot of people joining the association.

[Si'aan Anoura]

My thoughts exactly! I think that is something that will have to be discussed further. It should be hidden either until the contract is completed or if someone gives negative feedback - that way it is open to the scrutiny of the public as to whether the negative feedback is fair.

As for being able to actually make this on the webpage- Recnep is our friend heheh

[eljayco]

Jan 12, 2009 2:34:29 GMT -5 khaene said:

The real difficulty with a DNS list is answering "how do we validate requests for additions to the list?" There are several ways we could end up doing this.
One possible solution:
Rather than a DNS list perhaps we could have a system much like various online marketplaces where association members can just comment on players/clans they have done business with. Before entering a contract with someone perhaps we could pull up a list of their previous completed contracts and any positive or negative comments and leave the decision up to the individual association member.!

You mean like ebay's sell star rating for example or whatever it's called.

We could have some sort of ratings list and people could decide to sell based on the rating?

The only issue at tthe moment is we don't know how many servers there will be, I am assuming more then one in which case you need a seperate DNS list for each one or a seperate DMA for each server otherwise it's going to be a lot more difficult to manage I fear.

[khaene]

If we get any kind of web based database for contracts and contractors it probably won't be a big deal filtering it by server and/or faction/race or other factors.

Of course, I also have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to setting something like that up.

[Si'aan Anoura]

Jan 12, 2009 5:25:27 GMT -5 khaene said:

[...]
Of course, I also have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to setting something like that up.

Haha, I know your pain! And yes, I've wondered how we would deal with multiple server issues like this. It would come down to whether we wanted to be a blanket organisation that covered all servers (or some), or whether we stay in just one. I know a lot of people aren't going to stay on EU servers once NA opens, and that will affect things too. Perhaps, when we know more on servers, we can separate in-game-specific-server related stuff into server categories, but general discussion can continue for everyone to participate in? (*Is not envious of the ambitious tasks that lie ahead for Recnep!*) I think Recnep will have to comment on what he is capable of etc too when he can.

[belthize]

First off I think all the suggestions are good ones but I foresee some complications that would need to be addressed, most of them you mentioned.

1) If you want to extend beyond simple word of mouth then somebody, as you say, has to write a contract/feedback type interface. This is not simple to do properly.

I've been assuming that the make up of visitors to DMA will be crafters, harvesters, end product buyers, mercs(protection) in approximately that order. The line can obviously be blurred between the four groups. Most of the actual 'trade' that takes place here would be between crafters and harvesters.

End product buyers will typically obtain goods from their clan crafters, the in game trade boards, or crafters they're intimately familiar with. Merc clans will have their own web site and contract system and merely advertise here. There will be solo, free lance mercs as well but statistically they'll be less prevalent. A merc that mostly fills harvesting contracts I'd consider a harvester. Protection contracts will be less common. As the only free lance merc Sianna is likely to get a lot of work but 10 crafters can't keep 10 free lance mercs employed via protection contracts.

That means contracts will be primarily between supplier and crafter. There's going to be a lot of competition here. You run the very real risk of fake negative feedback and eventual forum arguments and ultimately tearing the community apart. It's much easier to click and anonymous 'seller sucks' button than leaving a scathing post on the forums. Not saying it can't be done but it has to be fairly robust.

In other games the more successful free lance crafters/merchant clans have frequently had their own website and put up a web interface for placing orders and just directed clients there through posts on the various public sites. I suspect that will happen in DF as well.

2) Do Not Sell is an unfortunate term IMO. It really ought to be a 'Watch out for' list. DF will be a brutal competitive game and what might seem bad behavior by some will be good behavior to others. For instance a merchant clan might decide to hurt another merchant clan of an opposing faction or that their allies are at war with. The connotation of 'Do Not Sell' is that everyone should not trade with that person(s). It's quite possible only 50% of the forum members feel that way. It's inherently unenforceable and ought to serve only as a warning to the more solo types as to who to watch out for. Some scammers will gladly do legit business unless the crafter leaves themselves open at which point they'll strike. Not selling to them is a loss of money and they could merely be RP'ing.

3) Multiple servers pose a real complication. I predict DMA will either span all servers and serve as a gathering spot and information clearing house of a more general nature or it will morph and be one server only (likely the one Recneps plays on) .

4) I agree we need one general trade association but it can't have much in the way of rules for in game behavior or it will definitely fracture into Balkan states. Crafters/harvesters will span all the other RP, RPK, anti-PK, race, faction play types.

What we really need now is mass and limited guidelines beyond 'don't be a jerk on the forums' to be as open to visitors as possible. The more visitors/members the more likely folks will be to find like minded players to form their own group/clan/union/alliance in game or write a nifty web feedback interface they're willing to release.

It may well be if we max out at a few hundred members that all the unclanned ones will join up and form a formal association and DMA will change into the front for that. If we max out at 10K (VGcrafters hit that 2-3 months after release) then there's sufficient mass to split off multiple focused groups on their own websites and end up using DMA as a simple info exchange (how do you make X, Come join MATH, looking for harvester, need a ship builder near Sanguine on World X) type communication.

The latter will be particularly useful for those members who want to roll on the NA server. It gives them some time before launch to get organized and create whatever they can imagine.

5) Yah ... the lack of information about in game mechanics makes any decisions premature in my opinion. I have ideas about how things could work but it won't be clear till weeks or later after release.

TL;DR: Those are good ideas, we need more people.

Thorsen Belthize
ps: Welcome to DMA Khaene, glad you came.

[Si'aan Anoura]

Jan 12, 2009 8:30:05 GMT -5 belthize said:

I've been assuming that the make up of visitors to DMA will be crafters, harvesters, end product buyers, mercs(protection) in approximately that order. The line can obviously be blurred between the four groups. Most of the actual 'trade' that takes place here would be between crafters and harvesters.

I also suspect there will be some major deals formed between gatherers/crafters and city-builders: One for accessing a clan-controlled resource, the other supplying equipment to a clan (either war machines or armour/weapons generally). At least I hope this is a big part too. I am trying to find some city-building and territorial clans who would be interested in joining. It would definitely be in their interest to do so. imo.