Post by belthize on Jan 12, 2009 16:55:08 GMT -5
I'm leaving this post intact for historic context, the next post reflects a more current view.
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Since some of my other comments probably implied I was adverse to a trade association I decided to post some ideas I had on how I'd see a true trade association/union working. I was only against limiting DMA as a trade union, not trade unions in general. I hope other people post their own ideas and the best can rise to the top.
I could see race specific trade unions, independent crafter/harvester trade unions, crafter only consortiums etc all being viable approach. This is a fairly large server wide one.
If there's any interest in this I'll keep modifying this post to reflect the general consensus and maybe those interested in the overall philosophy can hammer out a 'plan'. I'm going to call it a league just to remove confusion with it and DMA. I'll try to use must, should and probably to reflect the differences between things I think are mandatory for success, things I think are likely needed for success and things that are very much open for debate.
Warning it's butt long. I wanted to get my reasoning in to. Ultimately , if the league existed, the rules would be minus all the philosophical mumbo jumbo and therefore might fit on a business card.
Basic guidelines
The league's fundamental purpose is assistance for merchants and influence on the economy.
The league has to have a purpose beyond, we have a name and a website. The most obvious purposes are assisting fellow league members and attempting to influence the economy to league members benefit. Basically a carrot and stick. If you play along it's to your benefit.
The league would likely have a web interface for non-members to see prices and members to support direct sales. How that would work is beyond the scope of this discussion.
Assistance is primarily in the form of information, DNS lists, (scammers, griefers), skill help, pricing suggestions, partner creation, increased exposure for more sales etc.
Specifically how this achieved is a matter of much debate but I have some suggestions further down.
Since there will be multiple clans in the league death is inevitable as member clans declare war on each other. Protecting members from death in general is a dicey topic. DF is a PvP full loot game. I think death should be an expected state for all players and single kills shouldn't have any real bearing on the league as a whole (more on this further down).
The league must exist on a single server.
It really doesn't make sense to try to enforce rules across multiple servers. I could see forks based on the same idea on each server (they could even be hosted on the same website) but each incarnation of the League has to be on a single server.
Since EU is the first server I'd suggest it. New servers (particularly NA) could result in a fork or a mass migration if that's what the majority wanted in which case the EU side could fork.
The league probably has to be ARAC.
There's no one race or faction that really has sufficient clout to pull off a league with the expressed fundamental purpose. If trade was very very local only it could fly but if it's at all global then it has to be ARAC. Additionally a lot of clans may be ARAC, what to do with a predominately H/M/D clan that allows a handful of other races ?
The league probably should be limited to people with harvesting/crafting skills.
People with harvesting and crafting skills are the focus of the league, and the ones with a vested interest, therefore they should be the true members. They're free to call themselves, mercs, traders, crafters, raiders etc but they have to have crafting or harvesting skill.
Pure combat protection contract style mercs can certainly play a role interacting with the league but its not clear to me what their role would be as actual members. It's possible they could be non-voting members but I predict they'd probably not even join. There's certainly room for discussion here.
Initially I'd suggest limiting it to only those with harvesting/crafting skills. I'd suggest a minimum of 150 points in harvesting or crafting skills with no less than 50 in at least one of the skills counted toward 150 (ie 3x50 is ok, 4 x 40 is not). If there's some question as to whether somebody is really a crafter/harvester then they'd have to prove it via crafting/harvesting an object which required a skill of 50 to achieve while being observed by a known member not in their clan. This also means existing members must continue to craft or harvest. Temporarily gaining the skill isn't sufficient if somebody catches and calls you on it. Some objective measure is necessary to differentiate crafter/harvester from spy/random tag along/clan padding.
I'd also suggest not requiring the test unless there's some question. The vast majority of potential members and applicants will have the requisite skill or be on their way to obtaining it.
The league must allow potential representatives from all clans and independents to apply for membership.
Initially any qualifying crafter/harvester from any clan, sub-clans, alliances or independents should be allowed to join. There are some limits discussed later but they're distinct from this fundamental principle. No favorites, if goon wants to join that's their prerogative. If they screw up they can be booted.
Clans may have to be limited to X members per 100 members. A clan with 1000 members each of whom have some skill would dominate/destroy the league. I'd suggest a 5 member limit plus 1 for every 50 members over 100. The 1 per 50 is just a stab in the dark, too small and they have no influence, too big and they have too much though clan influence is limited even more further down. I'm going to suggest 1 per 50 for now. In my experience the average clan ends up with about 40% of its members capable of crafting and harvesting. The limit only kicks in at additional members over 5 so a 10 member crafter clan has as much representation as a 100 member normal clan, they'd both be allowed 5 members. A 200 member clan would have 7.
The league must have control of who is a member both in game and out of game.
This means members must use their in game name within league forums. Creation of alts are inevitable but at first pass you have to be able to equate somebody on the forum to somebody in game. Access to all but the most general information within the league is limited to members.
The league must have the ability to exert influence on members in game.
If there aren't any rules for membership the league isn't fundamentally different from DMA. If the league can't act in its own defense from infiltrators it won't survive.
The rules should be focused on general behavior without interfering in clan politics, wars, faction killing etc. If they go against the fundamental game play nature of DF it'll fall apart.
The rules are there to protect the league, not necessarily the members of the league. I think this is a very important point.
Exactly what those rules are open for debate but I'll add some ideas in the next post.
The league should have a mechanism for setting prices.
What's the fun in having a league if you can't influence prices. Since so many items can be crafted I'd suggest the league set prices for raw resources and then a formula for crafted items. Each combine takes 'N' seconds so something like M * 10% + N*X. M is the total cost of the materials (including the gold required to use the station), N is the number of combines and X is a gold per combine constant. The more mats and number of combines the higher the price. Factoring in rarity isn't necessary since it's already incorporated in the mat price and combines.
This allows for a smaller set of suggested prices and a method for deriving other prices.
Trying to set recommended prices on *every* object would be too hard, it almost has to be a resource based measure.
I think their should be two states for prices. Suggested and fixed. Suggested is merely a method for everyone (member or not) to know what we think something is worth. You do not have to conform to it.
Fixed prices are a big deal. Those and DNS lists represent the might of the league. By fixing a price the league could potentially exert its will over an outside cartel or clan. They should be rare and should require a substantial backing of the members. It's essentially a declaration of war and is likely to hurt some members in the process while helping others. If the league fixes a price it will vary greatly from the suggested and it's expected members will follow it.
The league structure must allow for adapting to change.
There are simply too many unknowns now and even later. As Alliances form and the game changes the league has to adapt. Once some 'charter' is ratified I'd suggest having a voting block to make changes.
A representative form is easier to deal with than a mass voting democracy so I'd suggest having a 9 member council that votes on DNS lists, price changes, rule changes and member removal. Each month any one can throw their had in the ring a week ahead of time. During that week every member gets to vote for a candidate. The top 9 vote getters are that months representatives.
9 strikes me as a good compromise. It's small enough to not grid lock in endless debate and balkanization but not so small that one faction can gain control. It's certainly subject to debate and change.
Decisions by them are a simple 5 vs 4 majority vote. Each item for vote would be publicly visible with some window of discussion amongst all members. The 9 would then vote and their votes would be visible.
A monthly cycle means fresh ideas are potentially appearing and a horrible rep can be pulled relatively quickly.
Changes to the charter passed by the 9 would have to be ratified by majority vote of all members. It should be a rare but possible occurrence.
Clans would be limited to one candidate per 100 members. This means independents gain greater control but a large clan could have more influence if it can get its members elected. Since clans are already limited in the number of members it would actually take a large alliance of clans to create a majority voting bloc. The independents and small clans could easily block them by getting behind 5 candidates of their own.
The league should be created to encourage 'fun' not 'work' within DF.
Rules should *not* be set up to completely stifle intrigue and attempts by internal factions to gain control. Part of the fun of the league would be the politics. For example you could get harvesting cartels out maneuvering crafting cartels for votes to try and sway the market prices by buying up independent votes (maybe in exchange for resources).
Alternatively member clans at war with one another could try to influence the league internally in their favor.
How to start.
Keep hammering out details here till some 'consensus' is reached. We should strive to take into account clans likely wishes and speak for them.
If we reach critical mass, make a website, advertise, wait till we have X members and cast the first representative vote.
It's even possible as membership grows and clans join/leave a natural time for the league to capture a city arises. There will likely be a city at some point that most of the member clans are at war with or indifferent to so they wouldn't object and might even help. Figuring out the rules for that city would be an entirely separate exercise.
If others have completely different ideas for a Trade Union/Association I encourage them to create a thread and post and potentially something will come of all this.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since some of my other comments probably implied I was adverse to a trade association I decided to post some ideas I had on how I'd see a true trade association/union working. I was only against limiting DMA as a trade union, not trade unions in general. I hope other people post their own ideas and the best can rise to the top.
I could see race specific trade unions, independent crafter/harvester trade unions, crafter only consortiums etc all being viable approach. This is a fairly large server wide one.
If there's any interest in this I'll keep modifying this post to reflect the general consensus and maybe those interested in the overall philosophy can hammer out a 'plan'. I'm going to call it a league just to remove confusion with it and DMA. I'll try to use must, should and probably to reflect the differences between things I think are mandatory for success, things I think are likely needed for success and things that are very much open for debate.
Warning it's butt long. I wanted to get my reasoning in to. Ultimately , if the league existed, the rules would be minus all the philosophical mumbo jumbo and therefore might fit on a business card.
Basic guidelines
The league's fundamental purpose is assistance for merchants and influence on the economy.
The league has to have a purpose beyond, we have a name and a website. The most obvious purposes are assisting fellow league members and attempting to influence the economy to league members benefit. Basically a carrot and stick. If you play along it's to your benefit.
The league would likely have a web interface for non-members to see prices and members to support direct sales. How that would work is beyond the scope of this discussion.
Assistance is primarily in the form of information, DNS lists, (scammers, griefers), skill help, pricing suggestions, partner creation, increased exposure for more sales etc.
Specifically how this achieved is a matter of much debate but I have some suggestions further down.
Since there will be multiple clans in the league death is inevitable as member clans declare war on each other. Protecting members from death in general is a dicey topic. DF is a PvP full loot game. I think death should be an expected state for all players and single kills shouldn't have any real bearing on the league as a whole (more on this further down).
The league must exist on a single server.
It really doesn't make sense to try to enforce rules across multiple servers. I could see forks based on the same idea on each server (they could even be hosted on the same website) but each incarnation of the League has to be on a single server.
Since EU is the first server I'd suggest it. New servers (particularly NA) could result in a fork or a mass migration if that's what the majority wanted in which case the EU side could fork.
The league probably has to be ARAC.
There's no one race or faction that really has sufficient clout to pull off a league with the expressed fundamental purpose. If trade was very very local only it could fly but if it's at all global then it has to be ARAC. Additionally a lot of clans may be ARAC, what to do with a predominately H/M/D clan that allows a handful of other races ?
The league probably should be limited to people with harvesting/crafting skills.
People with harvesting and crafting skills are the focus of the league, and the ones with a vested interest, therefore they should be the true members. They're free to call themselves, mercs, traders, crafters, raiders etc but they have to have crafting or harvesting skill.
Pure combat protection contract style mercs can certainly play a role interacting with the league but its not clear to me what their role would be as actual members. It's possible they could be non-voting members but I predict they'd probably not even join. There's certainly room for discussion here.
Initially I'd suggest limiting it to only those with harvesting/crafting skills. I'd suggest a minimum of 150 points in harvesting or crafting skills with no less than 50 in at least one of the skills counted toward 150 (ie 3x50 is ok, 4 x 40 is not). If there's some question as to whether somebody is really a crafter/harvester then they'd have to prove it via crafting/harvesting an object which required a skill of 50 to achieve while being observed by a known member not in their clan. This also means existing members must continue to craft or harvest. Temporarily gaining the skill isn't sufficient if somebody catches and calls you on it. Some objective measure is necessary to differentiate crafter/harvester from spy/random tag along/clan padding.
I'd also suggest not requiring the test unless there's some question. The vast majority of potential members and applicants will have the requisite skill or be on their way to obtaining it.
The league must allow potential representatives from all clans and independents to apply for membership.
Initially any qualifying crafter/harvester from any clan, sub-clans, alliances or independents should be allowed to join. There are some limits discussed later but they're distinct from this fundamental principle. No favorites, if goon wants to join that's their prerogative. If they screw up they can be booted.
Clans may have to be limited to X members per 100 members. A clan with 1000 members each of whom have some skill would dominate/destroy the league. I'd suggest a 5 member limit plus 1 for every 50 members over 100. The 1 per 50 is just a stab in the dark, too small and they have no influence, too big and they have too much though clan influence is limited even more further down. I'm going to suggest 1 per 50 for now. In my experience the average clan ends up with about 40% of its members capable of crafting and harvesting. The limit only kicks in at additional members over 5 so a 10 member crafter clan has as much representation as a 100 member normal clan, they'd both be allowed 5 members. A 200 member clan would have 7.
The league must have control of who is a member both in game and out of game.
This means members must use their in game name within league forums. Creation of alts are inevitable but at first pass you have to be able to equate somebody on the forum to somebody in game. Access to all but the most general information within the league is limited to members.
The league must have the ability to exert influence on members in game.
If there aren't any rules for membership the league isn't fundamentally different from DMA. If the league can't act in its own defense from infiltrators it won't survive.
The rules should be focused on general behavior without interfering in clan politics, wars, faction killing etc. If they go against the fundamental game play nature of DF it'll fall apart.
The rules are there to protect the league, not necessarily the members of the league. I think this is a very important point.
Exactly what those rules are open for debate but I'll add some ideas in the next post.
The league should have a mechanism for setting prices.
What's the fun in having a league if you can't influence prices. Since so many items can be crafted I'd suggest the league set prices for raw resources and then a formula for crafted items. Each combine takes 'N' seconds so something like M * 10% + N*X. M is the total cost of the materials (including the gold required to use the station), N is the number of combines and X is a gold per combine constant. The more mats and number of combines the higher the price. Factoring in rarity isn't necessary since it's already incorporated in the mat price and combines.
This allows for a smaller set of suggested prices and a method for deriving other prices.
Trying to set recommended prices on *every* object would be too hard, it almost has to be a resource based measure.
I think their should be two states for prices. Suggested and fixed. Suggested is merely a method for everyone (member or not) to know what we think something is worth. You do not have to conform to it.
Fixed prices are a big deal. Those and DNS lists represent the might of the league. By fixing a price the league could potentially exert its will over an outside cartel or clan. They should be rare and should require a substantial backing of the members. It's essentially a declaration of war and is likely to hurt some members in the process while helping others. If the league fixes a price it will vary greatly from the suggested and it's expected members will follow it.
The league structure must allow for adapting to change.
There are simply too many unknowns now and even later. As Alliances form and the game changes the league has to adapt. Once some 'charter' is ratified I'd suggest having a voting block to make changes.
A representative form is easier to deal with than a mass voting democracy so I'd suggest having a 9 member council that votes on DNS lists, price changes, rule changes and member removal. Each month any one can throw their had in the ring a week ahead of time. During that week every member gets to vote for a candidate. The top 9 vote getters are that months representatives.
9 strikes me as a good compromise. It's small enough to not grid lock in endless debate and balkanization but not so small that one faction can gain control. It's certainly subject to debate and change.
Decisions by them are a simple 5 vs 4 majority vote. Each item for vote would be publicly visible with some window of discussion amongst all members. The 9 would then vote and their votes would be visible.
A monthly cycle means fresh ideas are potentially appearing and a horrible rep can be pulled relatively quickly.
Changes to the charter passed by the 9 would have to be ratified by majority vote of all members. It should be a rare but possible occurrence.
Clans would be limited to one candidate per 100 members. This means independents gain greater control but a large clan could have more influence if it can get its members elected. Since clans are already limited in the number of members it would actually take a large alliance of clans to create a majority voting bloc. The independents and small clans could easily block them by getting behind 5 candidates of their own.
The league should be created to encourage 'fun' not 'work' within DF.
Rules should *not* be set up to completely stifle intrigue and attempts by internal factions to gain control. Part of the fun of the league would be the politics. For example you could get harvesting cartels out maneuvering crafting cartels for votes to try and sway the market prices by buying up independent votes (maybe in exchange for resources).
Alternatively member clans at war with one another could try to influence the league internally in their favor.
How to start.
Keep hammering out details here till some 'consensus' is reached. We should strive to take into account clans likely wishes and speak for them.
If we reach critical mass, make a website, advertise, wait till we have X members and cast the first representative vote.
It's even possible as membership grows and clans join/leave a natural time for the league to capture a city arises. There will likely be a city at some point that most of the member clans are at war with or indifferent to so they wouldn't object and might even help. Figuring out the rules for that city would be an entirely separate exercise.
If others have completely different ideas for a Trade Union/Association I encourage them to create a thread and post and potentially something will come of all this.
.
